By Sri Chiraan 2009/10/04
ShrIman.h madhva-mate In Sriman Madhva’s doctrine
1> hariH parataraH - Hari (Vishnu) is Supreme
2> satyaM jagat.h - The world is true (real)
3> tattvataH bhedaH - The differences between soul God and non sentient are real
4> jIvagaNAH hareH anucharAH - The sets of souls are dependent on Hari
5> nIchochcha bhAvaN^gatAH - And differ in the status even in the Mukti
6> muktiH naija-sukha-anubhUtiH - Mukti (liberation) is the experience of the joy of one’s
own nature
7> amalA-bhaktiH-cha tat.h sAdhanaM - That is achieved by flawless devotion and Yathartha Gyana correct understanding]
8> axAditritayaM hi pramANaM - [Perception ] anumana [Logic] and agama [Scriptures] etc.,are indeed the sources of knowledge
9> akhila-AmnAya-eka-vedyo hariH - Hari alone is conveyed in all the Veda
A tatva is a real entity. A entity [object] when perceived
as it exists [a thing in itself] it is said to be real.
For example a rope is perceived as rope [only] then the object rope is a real
entity. But if it is perceived as snake, then the object snake is superimposed perception and not real.
All the entities which convey themselves in real are known as tatvas.
Tatvas are of two types, Svatantra and asvatantra [paratantra].
Independent and dependent.
Supreme God Vishnu alone is svatantra independent.
And all others are dependent on HIM.
The paratantra is again divided into BHAVA and ABHAVA.
Bhava is of two types Chetan and ACHETANA.
Chetana is of two types:
One afflicted by sorrow and one untouched by sorrow.
Goddess Laxmi devi is Nitya mukta and untouched by sorrow.
She is the consort of Vishnu.
The other type those afflicted by sorrow are of two types:
Muktayogya and Muktiayogya.
Muktiyogya are those liberated and unliberated.
Rest are of two types, Neech madhyama [Tamoyogya and nityasamsari].
Muktiyogya are Devata rishi Pitru Raja narottama
Tamoyogya are classified as
daitya rakshas pishacha and naradhama four types.
Muktiyogya reach Vaikuntha and tamoyogya reach andhatamisra.
Both worlds have no return.
Mukti is achieved by Nirmal Bhakti towards the Supreme
And unmixed hate guarantees the andhatamisra.
It is the intrinsic nature of the soul to be under a class.
Achetan is classified as Nitya Anitya And nityaanitya,
Veda akshara and Avyakrut akasha are all nitya.
Purana, kala and prakruti are all nityanitya.
Krishnarpanamastu
Chiraan said:October 23, 2009 at 03:04
ReplyDeleteReply to a member
1. Prithvi Tatava is dominant in Kali – Yug humans.
2. Why were ppl able to fly in Sat- Yug.
3. Geeta is the scripture for Kali-Yug
4. Why does God cause Adharma??( If he does)
Q1 . THIS IS FAULTY STATEMENT ,PRITHVITATTVA IS NOT DOMINANT IN KALIYUGA , PADMA VACHAN POWERFULLY REFUTES IT , DURING A ll THE YUGAS TATVAS REMAIN IN SAME CONSTITUTION .
2. PEOPLE FLYING ,IN SATYUGA ,
THIS IS CHILDISH QUESTION [ ITS NOT SERIOUS PHILOSOPHY]
ANYONE WHO HAS GAINED MASTERY OVER UDAN VAYU CAN FLY , EVEN IF ITS IS KALIYUGA , MANY YOGIS AND ACHARYAS HAVE DEMONSTRATED THIS . VADIRAJA SWAMY HAS DEMONSTRATED MANY TIME .
ITS A YOGIC SIDHDHI . DHYANA IS COMMON DHARMA IN SAT YUGA , YAGNYA IS MUKHYA DHARMA IN TRETA AND DEV POOJA IS DWAPARA , ONLY NAAM JAPA IS IMPORTANT IN KALI .
SO FLYING IS NOT YUGA DEPENDENT BUT DEPENDENT ON UDAN VAYU .
UDAN VAYU IS PRESENT IN HUMANS EVEN IN KALIYUGA .
SO THE QUESTION IS STUPID .
3.GEETA IS SCRIPTURE OF KALI
FALSE . KRISHNA HIMSELF SAYS HE HAS TAUGHT IT TO SURYA AND VIVASWAAN , SO IT EXISTED EARLIER ALSO .
AGAIN FAULTY UNDERSTANDING .
4 WHY DOES GOD CAUSE ADHARMA , THAT IS THE PAPA SADHANA OF TAMASIC SOULS . GEETA AND BHAGAVAT IS TESTIMONY TO IT ,
SUMEET HAS NOT READ IT NOR UNDERSTOOD IT PERHAPS VENTASANAND DID NOT MENTION IT OR TRANSLATORS HE IS FOLLOWING HAVE OVERLOOKED , SO SUMEET HAS BEEN LEFT OUT OF THIS IMPORTANT TEACHING .
POOR SUMEET . GO GET ANOTHER REFRESHER COURSE IN MEDITATION AT VENATASANAND ASHRAMA , BY THE WAY READ BHAGAVAT ITS A GOOD STORY , IT TELLS YOU REAL MEANING OF SURRENDER TO GOD
Chiraan said:October 24, 2009 at 17:49
ReplyDeleteLook at the childish statements of Sumeet (somebody debating) . quote ” I think the most powerful instrument a human has for achieving salvation ….is his mind. Bondage is in the mind…and so is freedom. Once that is conquered …we move on to the soul. Unquote ‘
He is still thinking , and is not sure about anything . Yet there is no statement saying This is so ….. this is the state of mind .
‘ we move on to soul … what is we , is it the soul or mind . this is foolish . His statement shows , he is different from mind , so he co. nquers it and frees it from bondage then moves on to soul . he moves on to soul , so what is he ., what was the soul … that he moves on to . when he moves on does it interact and undergo changes , to achieve some state , [ that is why he wants to move on …. He has read vedas in Foreign universities , perhaps what he means is translation . and what he is read he is sure it is not found elsewhere even in india , hiw rubbish ,. people come to Indian libraries in search of eastern literature . and sumeet reads it in universities ,
Such foolish claims he wants us to accept . Sumeet nobody is asking you to defend anything , You are displaying your ignorance with each post and your state is vastly because of your own belief We dont bother whether you change or not , But it is a must to know what is right and wrong ,. EVEN in the land that you lead life has certain dos and donts . and I am sure even in your wildest dreams you would think of defaulting them because that would mean an end to your freeodm ,. It is this fear that causes you stick to the dharma of land .however dubious that may be . This shows you do not do what you belief [ There is nothing right or wrong ] this statement of yours even you are not folllowing so why make such a statement .
As I already said you are miserable in beliefs also . The fact is you do not have any belief . What you have read is just few translations from people who were bent to show east has no philosophy , you are a byproduct . What you call as outdated [vedas],. I practise ,it crores of people like me practise and benefit from it . If you dont see any benefit it shows your own self . But you cannot say , crores of people wrong in following something , which you never have read ,and You who knows nothing even from basic life can comment on Vedic culture just on one qualification of having gone begging for livelihood to various uncultured spots . [ I am sure you would not be able to give even one sentence from vedic scriptures and its meaning , ] What you are stating is pure VIPAREET Gyana and Refuting such thoughts is the prime dharma .
Look slowly you have retreated because the more you open your mouth more immaturity spills out and it makes you look diminutive which in the beginning you had misconception that you are someone who needs to be taken seriously on account of living in mercy somewhere in periphery .
Chiraan said:October 24, 2009 at 18:17
ReplyDelete“There is nothing right or wrong in this world ”
Let us analyse this statement Previously shown. Every land has its own constitution , no one dares to flout them for fear of punishment . Even perpetrators of "there is nothing right or wrong" don't dare flout rights and wrongs of the land. When such hypocrisy is seen in the makers of such statement, it shows ulterior motive getting people into sin [ or giving vent to sin in self]
Such people [ saying "there is nothing right or wrong"] when they object to CHIRAAN saying this right and this wrong what they are doing is saying CHIRAAN is wrong ! aren’t they contradicting themselves, because [ there is nothing right or wrong ] how come chiraan becomes wrong, if chiraan is wrong then [ there is right and wrong ]
Its like saying "dont follow any guru, you're your own master". Person teaching this is indirectly telling not to follow him i.e. , follow a master.
So the philosophies which are against Vedic teachings are always self contradictory. A thorough scrutiny and logic helps to conclude .
Chiraan said:October 24, 2009 at 18:17
ReplyDeleteOn Sat, Oct 24, 2009 at 5:48 PM, Chiraan S wrote:
> childish statements of Sumeet . > quote > I think the most powerful instrument a human has for achieving salvation >.is his mind. > Bondage is in the mind and so is freedom. Once that is conquered …we > move on to the soul.
> Unquote ‘ > > He is still thinking , and is not sure about anything . Yet there is no > statement saying This is so ….. this is the state of mind . > > ‘ we move on to soul … > what is we , is it the soul or mind . this is foolish . His statement shows > , he is different from mind , so he conquers it and frees it from bondage > then moves on to soul . he moves on to soul , so what is he ., what was the > soul … that he moves on to . when he moves on does it interact and undergo > changes , to achieve some state , [ that is why he wants to move on …. > He has read vedas in Foreign universities , perhaps what he means is > translation . and what he is read he is sure it is not found elsewhere even > in india , how rubbish ,. people come to Indian libraries in search of > eastern literature . and sumeet reads it in universities , > > Such foolish claims he wants us to accept . Sumeet nobody is asking you to > defend anything , You are displaying your ignorance with each post and your > state is vastly because of your own belief > We don't bother whether you change or not , But it is a must to know what is > right and wrong ,. > EVEN in the land that you lead life has certain do's and don'ts . and I am > sure even in your wildest dreams you would think of defaulting them because > that would mean an end to your freedom ,. > It is this fear that causes you stick to the dharma of land .however > dubious that may be . > This shows you do not do what you belief [ There is nothing right or wrong > ] this statement of yours even you are not folllowing so why make such a > statement . > > As I already said you are miserable in beliefs also . The fact is you do > not have any belief . What you have read is just few translations from > people who were bent to show east has no philosophy , you are a byproduct . > What you call as outdated [vedas],. I practise ,it crores of people like me > practise and benefit from it . > If you dont see any benefit it shows your own self . But you cannot say , > crores of people wrong in following something , which you never have read > ,and You who knows nothing even from basic life can comment on Vedic culture > just on one qualification of having gone begging for livelihood to various > uncultured spots . [ I am sure you would not be able to give even one > sentence from vedic scriptures and its meaning , ] > What you are stating is pure VIPAREET Gyana and Refuting such thoughts is > the prime dharma . > > Look slowly you have retreated because the more you open your mouth more > immaturity spills out and it makes you look diminutive which in the beginning > you had misconception that you are someone who needs to be taken seriously > on account of living in mercy somewhere in periphery . > > >
Veenapranav said:October 6, 2009 at 19:47
ReplyDeleteDvaita philosophy is also called called tatvavaada ( realy philosophy)
The basic of dvaita is the the below five differences exist in this creation:
1)aatma and paramaatma are differnet
2)no two aatmaas are same
3) atma and jada(non living thing) are different
4)no 2 jadaas( non living things)
5)paramaatma and jada are different.
Dvaita propogates the theory of vishnu sarvottamatva. ie Vishnu is supreme.
All the tenets of dvaita have valid proof .
Acharya madhwa propogated this philosophy and this tradition is still continously running without any interruption. Time and again many scholars of advaita , charvaaka, buddha , vishistaadvaita etc have tried again and again to debate with dvaita gurus of madhwa parampara and have been defeated badly at all times.
The seers of madhwa parampara have displayed extraordinary powers and miracles.
More info to come…….
Chiraan said:October 6, 2009 at 21:45
ReplyDeleteShri Pranav , Thanks for the addendum , I would like to add Madhvacharya has not propagated any new philosophy , but this was followed since age immemorial , but as dwapar yuga ascended and with gautam’s Curse all the people forgot dvaita and other devatas other than Vishnu was also prayed as supreme . and suddenly with the advent of advaita all the vedas and vedic ritual got subdued , as adviata meant no reality in vedic dictum. So Madhvacharya and his preachings revived the true meaning of Vedas as Realistic and Vishnu sarvottamatva. I once again thank you for being cief instrument behind this post .
Chiraan said:October 6, 2009 at 22:01
ReplyDeleteIn the past 800 years ever since Madhvacharya descended on earth there is no single incident recorded where Dvaita scholars have lost a debate to any other philosophy . The real reason is God can be reached only through Dvaita and nothing less . Unlike common perception all the religions and philososphy leads to God , Dvaita says there is only one way to reach Lord and that is Tattvavada .
On Tue, Oct 6, 2009 at 9:45 PM, Chiraan S wrote:
> Shri Pranav , > Thanks for the addendum , I would like to add Madhvacharya has not > propagated any new philosophy , but this was followed since age immemorial , > but as dwapar yuga ascended and with gautam’s Curse all the people forgot > dvaita and other devatas other than Vishnu was also prayed as supreme . and > suddenly with the advent of advaita all the vedas and vedic ritual got > subdued , as adviata meant no reality in vedic dictum. > So Madhvacharya and his preachings revived the true meaning of Vedas as > Realistic and Vishnu sarvottamatva. > I once again thank you for being chief instrument behind this post . > >
Raguraman said:March 18, 2010 at 02:18
ReplyDelete“Purana , kala and prakruti are all nityanitya .”
Why is “kala” nityanitya? I remember reading on BNK Sharma’s works that kala is considered as nitya by Acharya.
Can you please explain? Without kala (time) or avyakrta akasha (space) how can anything exist?
Chiraan said:March 20, 2010 at 12:13
ReplyDeleteEntire creation and destruction is just a wink of time to Maha VISHNU. Thus creation goes on. It's pravahto nitya and in between creations it is anitya as with a new creation time of previous creation is no more a reference and is useless. But with reference to birth of Bramha, the kala is again important . But this ends with end of BRAMHA and thus ANITYA. But a new creation follows thus wrt VISHNU it is NITYA .
Akasha in which creation takes is temporary. Bhutaakasha insides is also anitya. BUT as there is still lots of space available outside BRAHANDA KHARPAR i.e. universe . that is AVYAKRUTA and is NITYA .
Raguraman said:March 24, 2010 at 03:38
ReplyDeleteOm Om Namo Narayanaya Om
Om Shri Gurubhyo Namaha
Om Shri Raghavendraya Namaha.
“but a new creation follows thus wrt VISHNU it is NITYA .”
So is there a kala wrt Shri Vishnu which is considered Nitya?
Otherwise how is it possible to even talk about actions of Shri Vishnu without some kala which is considered nitya?
Chiraan said:March 26, 2010 at 15:14
ReplyDeleteKala is pravahto nitya as it flows endlessly .
Chiraan said:October 25, 2009 at 18:41
ReplyDeleteOne of the points that has come across in the debate is
Is evil in the world under the control of GOD or not ?
The answer is YES
If Evil in tis world is independently carried out without the will of the GOD then omnipotence of GOD will be compromised ,.
Everything in this world runs only according to the wishes of GOD.
Then if it is accepted GOD does create evil , then is GOD evil
No GOD is full of auspicious qualities only.
Then how the two statement correlate,
Some philosophies , say as there is darkness below the lamp , so does all the opposites exists in GOD as well .
This cannot be true ,
As even darkness and light cannot stay together , if goodness in GOD is accepted there cannot be evil , But yet EVIL is also under the control of GOD.
This explains there are tamasic souls as well . and they are also reflections of GOD , and GOD regulates them as well . Its only through KALI LORD makes evil happen in the world . ITS only THROUGH MUKHYAPRANA that GOD spreads regulates GOOD in this world .,
KALI is taken to task by MUKHYAPRANA i.e. GOD as PRESENT IN MUKHYAPRANA,
So evils say that its GOD’s wish to spread evil so accept it , is refuted as , GOD is prayed only through MUKHYAPRANA .
There are different modes of prayers to GOD ,. GOD in child is prayed by caring , GOD in parents is prayed by seva
GOD in teacher is prayed by learning
GOD others is prayed by friendship .
GOD in EVIL is prayed by refuting and resisting .
SO evil has to fought with , resisted and taken to task . THIS is the prayer to LORD.keeping quiet is sin . this is also tatvavada . [ So abusing and asking accept because GOD did it is not a logic ]
WORSHIP to GOD is only as LORD as present in BHEEMSEN.
Srivathsa said:March 23, 2014 at 15:11
ReplyDeleteI have a question about madwa philosophy
1) for madwas there are 5 bedas
*)jada-jada
*)jiva -jiva
*)jiva-iswara
*)jiswara-jada and jiva-jada
—————————————…
BUT TODAYS SCIENCE HAVE PROVED THAT THERE IS NO JADA-JADA BEDA…..i:e according to madhvaacharya ,gold can never become silver….but todays science have proved that by changing electronics configuration we can change gold to silver….WHICH ACCORDING TO MADHVAACHARYA IMPOSSIBLE !!!!!!!…….
2)jiva-jiva beda:
accoring to dvaita each jiva is suguna and his prakrutika gunas are his own gunas.
BUT ACCORDING TO ME PRAKRUTHIKA GUNAS ARE NOT OF ATHMAS AND IS SUPER IMPOSED ON ATHMA,BY READING MY FOLLOWING COMMENTS U PEOPLE COME TO KNOW……..
1)me myself, i am human i see another human in kama,but if i become dog in next janma,i see dog with kama…..so prakruthika guna kama is not atmans guna
2) bhudhi:
now when we are human we have high level of bhudhi,but if i become dog in next janma we have bhudhi of the level of dog,so budhi is not atmas guna
if u go on thinking like that u will come to know that ,these gunas atman got from MAYA of jagath..and is not atmans guna ….so atman is nirgua and jagath is maya…………so madwaacharya’s jath is truth and 5 bedas are false…….
CAN YOU PEOPLE PLEASE ANSWER MY QUESTION?
Chiraan said:March 31, 2014 at 10:40
ReplyDeletewhen a gold changes to silver [ if at all ] ,, it no longer is called THAT GOLD converted to SILVER it remains silver .. that is BHEDHA .. bhedha does not means it cannot transform .. bhedha means transformation is altogether a different entity .
jiva jiva bhedha ..
even if you are born as dog ,, your preference for a particular dog with kaama is unique to you .. that UNIQUENESS is bhedha ..you cannot be like a ALSATIAN dog if you are born as chivhaha or pomerian .. if there were no bhedha then a jiva in one particular yoni should also get experience of other yonis .. other jivas there being same as him .. but this is against experience .. one does not get to feel experiences of other jeevas .. who are [ supposed to be same by advaitis ] , so when experience is not known it must be different jeevas only as EACHhas unique EXPERIENCE
buddhi
just because atma is not as inteleligent as human in dog birth ,, it does not mean atma has no gunas at all .. ATMA is bound by karma , and buddhi of DOG is BINDING on the ATMA .. if atma were nirguna ,without qualities , how is it feeling the alpa buddhi of DOG and human intelligence at TWO different births .. HIS feeling is SUBJECT to his QUALITIES only .. if it ahd no QUALITY ,, then it would not be able to undergo dogs alpatva nor gurutva of HUMAN birth .
so ATMA being bound by SANSAARA is REAL , and it has to get RELEASED from this bondage TO ATTAIN its own QUALITIES in FULL .. for this is AGAIN the GRACE of PARAMATMA only , he is ever UNDE control of PARAMATMA .. this infact proves JIVA PARMATMA bhedha
Srivathsa said:March 31, 2014 at 12:06
ReplyDeleteSir,
we call a guna is of a athma….if and only if…these gunas are there with athma….till the end….that is even in moksha….but…kama,bhudhi…etc are prakruthika gunas of athma….these changes from janma to janma….as i have expalined earlier,so these cannot be called athman’s guna….so
So,if you go on thinking like that……you will come to now…no prakruthika guna’s are athman guna only but only for temporary….but if you see in permanent….no prakruthika are athman’s guna…..because if they are athman’s guna….they should not change at any cost….but it is not true……so….athman don’t have prakruthika guna…hence he is nirguna…..
what you say sir?
Chiraan said:April 1, 2014 at 14:27
ReplyDeleteBuddhi kaama prachodan are all JADA ,, they should have an agency to undergo them , what is buddhi as tatva without a chetana soul behind it ,. as tatva [ composition of satyva rajas tamas ] it ahs binding effect on ATMA a chetana .. this binding is what makes atma do only what buddhi prerana happens .. The chetana of atma undergoes BUDDHI prerana [ BUDDHI itself being activated by ATAVABHIMANI devata [ another chetana ] .. thus atma having varied subjugation of qualities are owing to this CHETANA shakti [ which is higher to it making it binding and undergo its phala ..
so atma not having PRAKRUTI guna does not mena ATMA is having no qualities at all .. atma’s inherent quality of ichha gyaan is reflected in PRAKRUTIk shareera whcihever it has ..
Sriathsa said:April 1, 2014 at 17:09
ReplyDeleteThe explanation you have given is of samkhya system….which says that there are two thingsut
1)prakruthi
2)purusha
and as you say prakruthi is binding to purusha….but there these gunas get removed by knowledge…of knowing that purusha is different from prakruthi
but madhvacharya says….there are three types of jivas
1)rajas 2)tamas 3)sathvika….based on prakruthika guna…only…if not can you expalin me how?
gold ,silver.light are jada….these jada also have prakruthika gunas like shinning,colour,mass etc….
but kama,bhudhi etc are not jada….as jada meaning itself inert….these have to be considered as prakruhti…or prakruhtika guna only…so prakruhi or prakruthika gunas are not same as jada….if you say so…you have to accept budhi ,kama are gunas of out body….which is jada….but no acharya said so….
according to madhvacharya a tamasa jeevi will always a tamasa jeevi…he will never become sathvika…so as to maintain jiva -jiva beda…
according to advaita nirguna means without prakruthika guna only…as expalained by shankara….so what is the difference between dvaita and advaita?
that’s why shankara said the visible gunas or prakruthika gunas are not mine…so it is mithya…so jagath mithya….so seeing this how do you say jagath sathya?
Chiraan said:April 2, 2014 at 09:34
ReplyDeleteSankhya system is approved by LORD KRISHNA ..
knowledge does not remove binding ,There is no pramaana for it
ONLY LORDs grace removes BINDING ,, that is why he is called MUKUNDA
SATVIK RAJAS TAMASIK jeevas are not based on PRAKRUTIK gunas , it is INTRINSIC to SOUL ..
if they are not INTRINSIC , then a soul being SUBJECTED to EVIL behavior will squarely put BLAME on LORDs partial nature as , TENA VINA TRUNAMAPI NA CHALATI this dictum shows complete dependence of SOUL on PARMATMA , if complete dependence exists then being EVIL will also be responsibility of LORD and not of SOUL , why would GOD make one behave in EVIL manner ? isn’t LORD ATAYANT DAYALU and COMPLETE ANANTA KALYAAN GUNA POORNA .. kalyaan word shows he is auspicious ONLY , so why would he get inauspicious karma by JEEVA ? if all jeevas were SATVIK , getting inauspicious karma will mean some inauspiciousness exists in DOER >.
Buddhi is also jada TATVA only , it is vikaara of ahankaar tatva manas tatva ..
see the SATVA rajas TAMAS are prakrutik gunas they are JADA [ ruled by LAXMI devi ]
its compilation in different ratio makes MAHATTAVA ahankara manas buddhi indriya bhutas etc ..
all derivatives of JADA will be jada only
mad moha lobh kaam are all GUNAS of AKAASH tatva [ ganapati abhimani bruhaspati Chandra etc ]
so since akaash is JADA so all its guna KAAM is jada ..
BINDING is due CHANDRA being a CHETANA and superior to us since he acts over it .. HE WILL make it binding
just like TAXATION laws are BINDING on us because FM imposes [ FM being person of authority ] .. TAX by itself is NOT binding ..authorities make it BIDNING .. similarly KAAM itself as prakritik guna is not binding . IT is made binding by MANMATH .
ADVAITA does not say ATMA is nirguna because it ahs no PRAKRUTIK guna [ infact this is DWAITA stance that NIRGUNA means no prakrutik guna and that is applicable to PARMATMA ]
ADVaita says ATMA is NIRGUNA in the sense of having NO QUALITIES at all ..
SINCE BANDHA [ binding ] is SEEN , one cannot escape destiny his akrmas follow him even to heaven nd hell after death .. and this cycle does not end till HE gets BHAGAVAT prasaad and thus BANDHA MOXA laya srishTi sthithi NIYAMAN all are under control OF NARAYANA he is called as BHAGAVAN .. having six types of control ..
SO this jagath which is live proof of PANCHA bhedha it is called PRA -PANCHA and since binding is seen practically here and is experienced by one and all it is SATYA .. [ more importantly it is reiterated as pramana in VEDAS too ] SO JAGAT SATHYA